Is it just me or does this...

[J-man]

...irritate other business owners who face the daily grind of keeping their doors open?

‘Pay me my worth’: restaurant workers demand livable wages as industry continues to falter

Low wages and poor working conditions – as well as unruly customers – combine to keep the food service labor shortage going Mariah Tabb carries drinks to a table at a restaurant in Nashville on 10 September. Photograph: Mark Humphrey/AP After the traumas of widespread economic shutdowns during...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[The Sound Guy]

What, hearing on and on about various restaurant workers and their complaints?

Dunno, not a business owner. (though I think I have stock in a Holiday Inn somewhere )

Wages will rise until they can get enough workers. (or quality ones if that is what they want) Free Market system.

However, prices will rise as well, since unlike the liberal image of any landlord or business owner, they usually DON'T look like Scrooge McDuck and are NOT swimming in their safe full of money. They have to pay those salaries and there are no other sources of funds but the customer.

Even in a country such as ours, its a scarcity economy. There is only so much food and other goods out there, and if all wages rise, the costs go up and thus the prices go up and absorb all those wages. A basically unskilled job will never be a middle class job. If they think they will get rich as a server, it isn't' gonna happen.

 

[J-man]

I'm all for paying what the market demands, no issue with that at all. I just hope she doesn't cry when she's replaced by a table kiosk and a revolving server train like they have a Revolving Sushi. Most restaurants proved they could survive on pick-up and drive-thru service only. Servers would do well to remember that little nugget.

 

[Guard Dad]

It's a huge mess. We service the restaurant business and we're hearing horror stories. A lot of restaurants are having to close early or keep the dining rooms shut down because they can't get enough help. Many of them only have about half the employees they need to properly run the business.

A lot of these people have been convinced that they are entitled to higher wages, whether they are worth it or not. Sad reality is...a lot of the fast food employees out there are just terrible dumb. I don't mean to sound ugly, but it seems that many of the people who work at fast food places never saw the importance of developing their minds, and I wonder how some of them dress themselves. Certainly not all of them, but a lot of them.

In case you guys haven't noticed, prices have gone up considerably because of this. And that is hurting the lower income people more than anyone. Restaurants are having to pay employees more just to get them to work, and they are paying out a lot of overtime because they are understaffed, That is driving price increases.

We gotta get back to having an understanding that if you want to make more money, you need to increase your value to employers. Get better at what you do, get an education, learn a trade skill, etc. The trades are paying big bucks fro good people right now.

 

[cptlo]

We gotta get back to having an understanding that if you want to make more money, you need to increase your value to employers. Get better at what you do, get an education, learn a trade skill, etc.

Hush with all that crazy talk! Just give me my free stuff!!

 

[Guard Dad]

I'm all for paying what the market demands, no issue with that at all. I just hope she doesn't cry when she's replaced by a table kiosk and a revolving server train like they have a Revolving Sushi.

It's closer than you think.

The Golden Arches already has a working automated restaurant. And it's impressive technology. How about order takers who responds to you in whatever language and dialect you lead off with? Yep, it's already here.

 

[rolltidega]

I will say this having a young adult kid out on her own. As the cost of living continues to rise, there will have to be a wage correction somewhere, even in the so called unskilled jobs. It is definitely harder for someone that works in restaurants and those types of jobs to earn a "living" wage. Rent is through the roof, even for a one bedroom, which is why there are a lot of the younger generation still live at home. While I don't want to pay more for the things I enjoy, it is inevitable that it is going to happen.

I don't think a college education is always the answer either, especially if student loans are used to get the education. Having 2 young adult daughters, I wish there were more options outside of college for them. The current trade schools out there are jobs they have no interest in so they are pretty much stuck in retail for now (well my youngest is).

Anyway, just some observations from me.

 

[J-man]

It's closer than you think.

The Golden Arches already has a working automated restaurant. And it's impressive technology. How about order takers who responds to you in whatever language and dialect you lead off with? Yep, it's already here.

But...it's still the Golden Arches.

 

[Guard Dad]

I will say this having a young adult kid out on her own. As the cost of living continues to rise, there will have to be a wage correction somewhere, even in the so called unskilled jobs. It is definitely harder for someone that works in restaurants and those types of jobs to earn a "living" wage. Rent is through the roof, even for a one bedroom, which is why there are a lot of the younger generation still live at home. While I don't want to pay more for the things I enjoy, it is inevitable that it is going to happen.

I don't think a college education is always the answer either, especially if student loans are used to get the education. Having 2 young adult daughters, I wish there were more options outside of college for them. The current trade schools out there are jobs they have no interest in so they are pretty much stuck in retail for now (well my youngest is).

Anyway, just some observations from me.

Just a couple of thoughts.

I'm not in favor of the government increasing minimum wage. This causes more problems than it solves. The market will do this naturally when the demand for workers drives wages up. BUT, there is a partial down side to this as well when it's the lower income wages that are driven up. It absolutely drives up retail prices, and usually on the products and services that affects the lower income people the most. So it's self-defeating, to a point.

You guys know my feelings on collage. I'm not against it whatsoever, and I think it's the way to go for some people. But in the past it was pushed that college was the ONLY way, and way too many people are deep in debt with student loans and an almost worthless degree to show for it.

We gotta get back to building the trades as attractive careers and we need to do better with vocational education. There are great jobs out there for people who don't mind doing physical labor. But training for it is lacking, so most people just learn on the job, and though that's better than nothing it tends to leave out a lot of the technical background for it. So we need to doing more training for trade related jobs, and it needs to start in high school. Bring back auto shop, wood working, etc.

The United States needs to get back into manufacturing. Decades ago, a good chunk of the population made solid middle class incomes by working in manufacturing. They were jobs that could be done mostly by people without special skills, yet they paid well enough to raise a family on. We don't have much of that anymore; seems there's a big gap between upper middle class and above and the poverty class. Now, about all people without marketable skills end up working in food service or at WalMart, and most of those jobs are not going to pay enough to own a home and raise a family.

We live very BIG these days, and it costs money. Who doesn't have a smart phone with a data plan? How about those $100 a pair tennis shoes. Even those of us making better money, look how much we spend on internet, satellite/cable, streaming services, etc. Our parents didn't live that large, and it was much easier to raise a family on a lower income.

Oh and, don't get me started on the taxes we pay. Our income would go farther if the government didn't take so much.

And then there's insurance...

I taught a class for the youth group years ago to prepare the teenagers on what it really costs to live these days. I started off by asking them what lifestyle they expected. Most said what was expected...a house, two cars, children, etc. Then we started assigning a price tag to all those things, added them up, and determined what kind of income would be needed to afford even a modest standard of living.

The kids were shocked at how much money they would need to make to have even that basic lifestyle.

 

[Guard Dad]

But...it's still the Golden Arches.

And others will follow.

 

[J-man]

I taught a class for the youth group years ago to prepare the teenagers on what it really costs to live these days. I started off by asking them what lifestyle they expected. Most said what was expected...a house, two cars, children, etc. Then we started assigning a price tag to all those things, added them up, and determined what kind of income would be needed to afford even a modest standard of living.

People are shocked to learn that it takes almost $50k per year for a family of 4 with two cars and a dog to live just a "normal" life with few extras. Sure, compared to the 50's and 60's having two cars is considered an extra but back then they also had 2 dogs.

 

[cptlo]

dog

2 dogs

Clearly, dogs are the problem. If everyone got cats instead, the world would be purrfect.

 

[Guard Dad]

Clearly, dogs are the problem. If everyone got cats instead, the world would be filled with girly men

FYP...

 

[The Sound Guy]

We gotta get back to building the trades as attractive careers and we need to do better with vocational education. There are great jobs out there for people who don't mind doing physical labor. But training for it is lacking, so most people just learn on the job, and though that's better than nothing it tends to leave out a lot of the technical background for it. So we need to doing more training for trade related jobs, and it needs to start in high school. Bring back auto shop, wood working, etc.

The United States needs to get back into manufacturing. Decades ago, a good chunk of the population made solid middle class incomes by working in manufacturing. They were jobs that could be done mostly by people without special skills, yet they paid well enough to raise a family on. We don't have much of that anymore; seems there's a big gap between upper middle class and above and the poverty class. Now, about all people without marketable skills end up working in food service or at WalMart, and most of those jobs are not going to pay enough to own a home and raise a family.

We live very BIG these days, and it costs money. Who doesn't have a smart phone with a data plan? How about those $100 a pair tennis shoes. Even those of us making better money, look how much we spend on internet, satellite/cable, streaming services, etc. Our parents didn't live that large, and it was much easier to raise a family on a lower income.

Agreed on the trades. Nothing wrong with making money with your hands. My FIL raised a family of 4 as a Mechanic, but he learned the trade in the military.

Manufacturing is the key. Remember about 20 years or so ago, when all the talk was about the "info economy" and manufacturing wasn't needed? I knew it was BS then and its BS now. Intellectual property is important, but you can't base a middle class economy on it. You end up with what we are becoming, an upper class with all the income from the IP, and the lower class doing manual labour to support others. Manufacturing causes creation of VALUE which can then be paid to those who create it as higher WAGES. It's as simple as that.

As for the last point, yeah. My wife and I discussed this a while back. When we were married, we moved into a small mobile home. Water was included in the lot rent. so we had Power, Gas and landline phone bill. Couldn't afford cable, used an antenna. Utility bills were total $200 at worst.

Most kids now want Cell phone and High Speed internet minimum, maybe add Cable to that along with the Power, Water and Gas bills. If a bigger house, figure those utilities are now up to $350-$500 a month. Add up all those bills, divide by .75 to see what you will have to make before taxes and its' a mess. Add in the high cost of housing and a society here that is dependent on private transport to get from home to work to whatever, so you need a car and insurance and gasoline, and you are talking an amazing amount of money to break even.

 

[Stonewall]

I pretty much agree with everyone's views so far in this thread. The effect of giving away something that costs you more to make than you can sell it for is self explanatory. This very premise is what drove the US auto makers out of the country and overseas (or south of the border). You cannot pay a worker a package worth $75 an hour and make a car that sells for $15k. You cannot pay someone a higher wage than the value they are contributing to the finished product. You cannot sell a Big Mac for $2 that cost you $3 to make. Therefore the artificial pay increase will only drive up the cost of the finished product making the buying power of a $15 an hour job the same or less than a current $10 an hour job. As for people not working because they are too damn special to do just any labor, let them eat cake.

 

[Far West]

John B. Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia Experiment and Reflections on the Welfare State

The turning point in the "mouse utopia" project—a behavioral research experiment that provided mice all the food and water they needed and ensured no predator could gain access—occurred on Day 315. Some of the aberrations recorded may surprise you.

fee.org

John B. Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia Experiment and Reflections on the Welfare State​

Calhoun enclosed four pairs of mice in a 9 x 4.5-foot metal pen complete with water dispensers, tunnels, food bins and nesting boxes. He provided all the food and water they needed and ensured that no predator could gain access. It was a mouse utopia.

Calhoun’s intent was to observe the effects on the mice of population density, but the experiment produced results that went beyond that. “I shall largely speak of mice, but my thoughts are on man,” he would later write in a comprehensive report.

At first, the mice did well. Their numbers doubled every 55 days. But after 600 days, with enough space to accommodate as many as another 1,600 rodents, the population peaked at 2,200 and began to decline precipitously—straight down to the extinction of the entire colony—in spite of their material needs being met with no effort required on the part of any mouse.

The turning point in this mouse utopia, Calhoun observed, occurred on Day 315 when the first signs appeared of a breakdown in social norms and structure. Aberrations included the following: females abandoning their young; males no longer defending their territory; and both sexes becoming more violent and aggressive. Deviant behavior, sexual and social, mounted with each passing day. The last thousand mice to be born tended to avoid stressful activity and focused their attention increasingly on themselves.

Because of the externally provided abundance of water and food, combined with zero threats from any predators, the mice never had to acquire resources on their own. The young mice never observed such actions and never learned them. The life skills necessary for survival faded away. As Kubań notes,

Other young mice growing into adulthood exhibited an even different type of behavior. Dr. Calhoun called these individuals “the beautiful ones.” Their time was devoted solely to grooming, eating and sleeping. They never involved themselves with others, engaged in sex, nor would they fight. All appeared [outwardly] as a beautiful exhibit of the species with keen, alert eyes and a healthy, well-kept body. These mice, however, could not cope with unusual stimuli. Though they looked inquisitive, they were in fact, very stupid.

Utopia (when one has everything, at any moment, for no expenditure) prompts declines in responsibility, effectiveness and awareness of social dependence and finally, as Dr. Calhoun’s study showed, leads to self-extinction.

Calhoun himself suggested a parallel to humanity:

Herein is the paradox of a life without work or conflict. When all sense of necessity is stripped from the life of an individual, life ceases to have purpose. The individual dies in spirit.

By relieving individuals of challenges, which then deprives them of purpose, the welfare state is an utterly unnatural and anti-social contrivance. In the mouse experiment, the individuals ultimately lost interest in the things that perpetuate the species. They self-isolated, over-indulged themselves, or turned to violence.

 

[J-man]

John B. Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia Experiment and Reflections on the Welfare State

The turning point in the "mouse utopia" project—a behavioral research experiment that provided mice all the food and water they needed and ensured no predator could gain access—occurred on Day 315. Some of the aberrations recorded may surprise you.

fee.org

John B. Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia Experiment and Reflections on the Welfare State​

Calhoun enclosed four pairs of mice in a 9 x 4.5-foot metal pen complete with water dispensers, tunnels, food bins and nesting boxes. He provided all the food and water they needed and ensured that no predator could gain access. It was a mouse utopia.

Calhoun’s intent was to observe the effects on the mice of population density, but the experiment produced results that went beyond that. “I shall largely speak of mice, but my thoughts are on man,” he would later write in a comprehensive report.

At first, the mice did well. Their numbers doubled every 55 days. But after 600 days, with enough space to accommodate as many as another 1,600 rodents, the population peaked at 2,200 and began to decline precipitously—straight down to the extinction of the entire colony—in spite of their material needs being met with no effort required on the part of any mouse.

The turning point in this mouse utopia, Calhoun observed, occurred on Day 315 when the first signs appeared of a breakdown in social norms and structure. Aberrations included the following: females abandoning their young; males no longer defending their territory; and both sexes becoming more violent and aggressive. Deviant behavior, sexual and social, mounted with each passing day. The last thousand mice to be born tended to avoid stressful activity and focused their attention increasingly on themselves.

Because of the externally provided abundance of water and food, combined with zero threats from any predators, the mice never had to acquire resources on their own. The young mice never observed such actions and never learned them. The life skills necessary for survival faded away. As Kubań notes,





Calhoun himself suggested a parallel to humanity:


By relieving individuals of challenges, which then deprives them of purpose, the welfare state is an utterly unnatural and anti-social contrivance. In the mouse experiment, the individuals ultimately lost interest in the things that perpetuate the species. They self-isolated, over-indulged themselves, or turned to violence.

Interesting

 

[The Sound Guy]

John B. Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia Experiment and Reflections on the Welfare State

The turning point in the "mouse utopia" project—a behavioral research experiment that provided mice all the food and water they needed and ensured no predator could gain access—occurred on Day 315. Some of the aberrations recorded may surprise you.

fee.org

John B. Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia Experiment and Reflections on the Welfare State​

Wow. Had not heard of that before, but its like you can see some of it happening now.