Michigan School Shooter's Father Convicted of Manslaughter

J-man

J-man

Let's Go Brandon!!!
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A Michigan jury on Thursday convicted the father of a teenager who fatally shot four classmates at a high school near Detroit of manslaughter after prosecutors argued he bore responsibility because he and his wife gave their son a gun and ignored warning signs of violence.

James Crumbley, 47, was found guilty in his trial, carried out a month after his wife, Jennifer Crumbley, was found guilty on manslaughter charges stemming from the shooting. James Crumbley faced four counts of involuntary manslaughter, one for each of the victims at Oxford High School in the 2021 shootings. Jurors began deliberating on Wednesday.

Both James and Jennifer Crumbley will be sentenced on April 9. Manslaughter carries a penalty of up to 15 years in prison.


I have mixed feelings on this one. The kid committed the crime, not the parent(s). Is it a crime to suck at parenting or for being a bad role model? Where does the blame stop, are the doctors or teachers also responsible? What about neighbors, friends, and other relatives?
 
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I agree that this is a dangerous precedence to set. Parents are limited by the state on what they can and can't do to raise the kids, schools are promoting ideas that warp their minds and make issues where there should be none and the parent gets blamed if the kid acts out?

However, I think the primary reason for the guilty plea on this one is they gave a weapon to their son, who was underage to purchase on his own, and then failed to ensure it was used in the proper way and not kept under control. They took it away from him, but put it back in the box that they hid in their house from what I've read. They didn't even put it in the gun safe, (which still had the default code of 0-0-0 on it).

If it was a weapon he had bought on the street, or stolen, or had broken out of the parents gun safe, I don't see that coming back as guilty.
 
I don't have all the answers, but we as a society have got to do a better job dealing with mental illness. Minors, in particular, seem to be having far too many issues There is something at the root of this; maybe stuff in the food we eat, video games, watching TV, etc We need to get to the bottom of it
 
The Sound Guy said:
I agree that this is a dangerous precedence to set. Parents are limited by the state on what they can and can't do to raise the kids, schools are promoting ideas that warp their minds and make issues where there should be none and the parent gets blamed if the kid acts out?

However, I think the primary reason for the guilty plea on this one is they gave a weapon to their son, who was underage to purchase on his own, and then failed to ensure it was used in the proper way and not kept under control. They took it away from him, but put it back in the box that they hid in their house from what I've read. They didn't even put it in the gun safe, (which still had the default code of 0-0-0 on it).

If it was a weapon he had bought on the street, or stolen, or had broken out of the parents gun safe, I don't see that coming back as guilty.
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You would think parents would recognize when their kids are having some mental issues and then find the appropriate help. So many times, you see on the news parents stating they never saw any indication their kid had some mental issues. Why is that?
 
Ultimately, parents are responsible for the actions of their minor children,, it's been that way for quite a while. I do not understand giving a minor a weapon and not keeping it secured when the parents are not there to supervise any activity with the weapon. That being said, I believe Oakland County has it right and parents everywhere need to keep weapons secure and pay closer attention to their offspring.
 

Parents of Mich. School Shooter Sentenced to 10-15 Years Each​

The parents of a Michigan teen who shot and killed four classmates were each sentenced to 10-15 years in prison on Tuesday after a jury convicted them of manslaughter in a rare case of parents being held responsible in a school shooting.
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Ethan Crumbley was 15 at the time of the shooting at Oxford High School in 2021. He pleaded guilty in 2022 to four counts of first-degree murder and other charges and was sentenced to life in prison without parole in December.
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Prosecutors in the trials of both Jennifer Crumbley and James Crumbley said the parents were criminally negligent for providing a gun for their child as a Christmas present and for ignoring signs his mental health had deteriorated and that he was potentially violent


This case is alarming in that many of us here, as minors, were probably given a pew pew of some type by a parent or grandparent back in the day. Heck, the West was practically “won” and developed by minors with them. If this ruling stands then just think of the precedence this sets for future generations. I’m not defending the kid or the parents and I mean no disrespect towards the victims or their families. This could happen to any family.
 
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Service members are held responsible for the actions of their dependents on a military base. Crime committed by dependents on the installations is very low for that reason.
 
cptlo said:
Very alarming. The parents definitely wouldn't win any parenting awards but from what I've read they should not have been charged.

This article goes into great detail about Ethan and the shooting.

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This kid was showing signs of mental illness that his parents chose to ignore. He told them he was seeing demons and hearing voices. As a parent, I would be very concerned about that. That alone should have been a giant red flag waving in the faces of the kid's parents. I would ask the kid all kinds of questions about what he was seeing and hearing, then inform my doctor and ask for help for the kid. His parents didn't do that. They were negligent. It looks like the mother's horses were a higher priority than her son.
 
Boss 302 said:
This kid was showing signs of mental illness that his parents chose to ignore. He told them he was seeing demons and hearing voices. As a parent, I would be very concerned about that. That alone should have been a giant red flag waving in the faces of the kid's parents. I would ask the kid all kinds of questions about what he was seeing and hearing, then inform my doctor and ask for help for the kid. His parents didn't do that. They were negligent. It looks like the mother's horses were a higher priority than her son.
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Agreed...but then they should be charged with neglect or something similar, not manslaughter for actions their son did.
 
cptlo said:
Agreed...but then they should be charged with neglect or something similar, not manslaughter for actions their son did.
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They were convicted of involuntary manslaughter, which in Michigan includes negligent or criminal actions on the part of the defendant. The parents neglected to do anything to help their son. The following was found in the kid's journal.

“I have zero help for my mental problems and it’s causing me to shoot up the … school,” Ethan wrote. “I want help but my parents don’t listen to me so I can’t get any help.”
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The parents were negligent in getting their son the mental help he needed. He told them many times he was seeing demons and hearing voices. "Write about it in your journal," the kid's dad would often say. The father bought the kid the handgun, which is against federal law. The father should have used the lock on the gun besides just hiding it. The kid was able to find it, but he wouldn't have been able to use it if the lock that came with it had been used.

There is no doubt the parents' negligence resulted in the death of those students.
 
cptlo said:
Very alarming. The parents definitely wouldn't win any parenting awards but from what I've read they should not have been charged.

This article goes into great detail about Ethan and the shooting.

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I worked in the schools. This is the reason I am no longer at a school. I could not be in a position where the principal knew the children needed psychological help, and I was told, "No... we never let the parents know that. If we do, the school has to pay for it and we don't have funding."

We no longer, as a society, send these odd bird kids to the alternative schools where they can get the help they need BECAUSE there ARE NO LONGER ANY ALTERNATIVE SCHOOLS It is extremely difficult to have a child like this kid, Ethan, removed from regular public school.

Most parents don't have the resources or information to know what to do with their kid, who is at regular public school, even when the kid seems like the loner, mentally depressed, or even psychotic. Hurting animals is a BIG red flag. This kid was decapitating birds and keeping them as a trophy!

I have said over and over again. The signs are always there. We as a society no longer get these kids the help they need, instead they are mainstreamed with our precious regular kids.

In my day, an "Ethan" would have been moved to an alternative school that might actually be where he lived and received treatment. Gone are those days. Gone are those facilities.

We have all forms of need in the school from extreme learning disabilities, as in will never read or write and always be cared for like a baby including diapering and feeding... in he schools!!!!! To downs syndrome, and autistic, and kids like Ethan, and no extra care, and too many "diverse" learning needs to help any of them. Our public schools are a mess.

I fear that they are a mess on purpose. As the liberals have taken over the schools, the discipline schools used to require is gone. It is chaos with all these diverse learners. The "regular kids" don't get the education they deserve.

I also truly believe it is so that our kids no longer trust their gut instinct of fear. Normal kids are forced to be in a classroom with kids who are going through emotional breakdowns, or are socially and mentally psychotic.

I was in classrooms where a child would take the whole class hostage with scarry behavior. Instead of the kid being removed to another school, the class just had to accept that he or she was in their class. It dulls the internal instinct that you should avoid or run away from a lunatic. Kids are taught to accept being around unstable mentally unfit classmates.

Teachers don't have the needed skills to deal with this, yet here they are.

Sadly there is plenty of blame to go around, about "Ethan" not getting help. Parents, counselors, and teachers all failed. It also seems he was smart enough to trick everyone into thinking he was alright... however he was having psychotic episodes and mom and dad ignored it, or did not take him seriously. Heartbreaking for him. He must have been so scared, and mom and dad never responded to him.

We will continue to see this in the news, over and over. Kids like Ethan are not pulled out of regular schools and put in an institution that can help them, because they no longer exists. Parents don't have the help or skills to get their kids help. It is sad.
 
Far West said:
I worked in the schools. This is the reason I am no longer at a school. I could not be in a position where the principal knew the children needed psychological help, and I was told, "No... we never let the parents know that. If we do, the school has to pay for it and we don't have funding."

We no longer, as a society, send these odd bird kids to the alternative schools where they can get the help they need BECAUSE there ARE NO LONGER ANY ALTERNATIVE SCHOOLS It is extremely difficult to have a child like this kid, Ethan, removed from regular public school.

Most parents don't have the resources or information to know what to do with their kid, who is at regular public school, even when the kid seems like the loner, mentally depressed, or even psychotic. Hurting animals is a BIG red flag. This kid was decapitating birds and keeping them as a trophy!

I have said over and over again. The signs are always there. We as a society no longer get these kids the help they need, instead they are mainstreamed with our precious regular kids.

In my day, an "Ethan" would have been moved to an alternative school that might actually be where he lived and received treatment. Gone are those days. Gone are those facilities.

We have all forms of need in the school from extreme learning disabilities, as in will never read or write and always be cared for like a baby including diapering and feeding... in he schools!!!!! To downs syndrome, and autistic, and kids like Ethan, and no extra care, and too many "diverse" learning needs to help any of them. Our public schools are a mess.

I fear that they are a mess on purpose. As the liberals have taken over the schools, the discipline schools used to require is gone. It is chaos with all these diverse learners. The "regular kids" don't get the education they deserve.

I also truly believe it is so that our kids no longer trust their gut instinct of fear. Normal kids are forced to be in a classroom with kids who are going through emotional breakdowns, or are socially and mentally psychotic.

I was in classrooms where a child would take the whole class hostage with scarry behavior. Instead of the kid being removed to another school, the class just had to accept that he or she was in their class. It dulls the internal instinct that you should avoid or run away from a lunatic. Kids are taught to accept being around unstable mentally unfit classmates.

Teachers don't have the needed skills to deal with this, yet here they are.

Sadly there is plenty of blame to go around, about "Ethan" not getting help. Parents, counselors, and teachers all failed. It also seems he was smart enough to trick everyone into thinking he was alright... however he was having psychotic episodes and mom and dad ignored it, or did not take him seriously. Heartbreaking for him. He must have been so scared, and mom and dad never responded to him.

We will continue to see this in the news, over and over. Kids like Ethan are not pulled out of regular schools and put in an institution that can help them, because they no longer exists. Parents don't have the help or skills to get their kids help. It is sad.
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According to the Oxford school district site, they have two alternative schools. Until the day of the shooting, Ethan displayed no signs of mental health issues at school, so there was no reason to remove him from the high school to attend the alternative school.

Here's another big failure on the part of the parents on the day of the shooting. When looking at the photo taken of his drawing, they would have seen the words he wrote below the gun he drew, "The thoughts won't stop. Help me." He also wrote "Blood Everywhere." See the drawing below. The parents should have taken him home and looked for the gun. The school should have insisted the parents take their son home. The latter is why the parents of the victims have filed lawsuits against the school.

The ultimate responsibility belonged to the parents, and they failed.
1712766918832.png
 
Boss 302 said:
According to the Oxford school district site, they have two alternative schools. Until the day of the shooting, Ethan displayed no signs of mental health issues at school, so there was no reason to remove him from the high school to attend the alternative school.

Here's another big failure on the part of the parents on the day of the shooting. When looking at the photo taken of his drawing, they would have seen the words he wrote below the gun he drew, "The thoughts won't stop. Help me." He also wrote "Blood Everywhere." See the drawing below. The parents should have taken him home and looked for the gun. The school should have insisted the parents take their son home. The latter is why the parents of the victims have filed lawsuits against the school.

The ultimate responsibility belonged to the parents, and they failed.
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I think the article speaks to the fact that the limited services they had were difficult to access and the councilors were inundated with troubles made worse by the covid lockdowns that amplified teen mental problems.



Even before the pandemic, administrators in Oxford schools had started to notice more fragility, anxiety, depression, and withdrawal among students.

In the late 1990s, the Republican governor John Engler had closed three-quarters of Michigan’s psychiatric hospitals in a cost-cutting spree, leaving rural areas barren of psychiatric inpatient treatment for kids. There was some outpatient help available, but many families didn’t know where to find it “unless they were very savvy,” one administrator told me. When they did, wait times averaged four months. This backlog strained emergency rooms. “Every time a kid said, ‘If I don’t get an A on this spelling test, I’m going to kill myself or kill you’ or something,” she was sent to the ER, says Sheila Marcus, a psychiatrist at the University of Michigan who runs a program that trains primary-care doctors in mental health. Ninety percent of the time, these kids were deemed “not a threat” and sent back to school.

At school, mental-health support was far from robust. Shawn Hopkins, Ethan’s guidance counselor, testified in court that he was one of four counselors at the high school looking after the needs of 1,800 kids. This gave him time to see each student for ten minutes once a year, barring crises. He was performing one or two suicide-risk assessments each month. Meanwhile, among certain parents, a mistrust of educators, institutions, and authority figures was growing — a stubborn sense of “You’re not going to tell me what to do with my kid,” as Rosemary Bayer put it.

During the pandemic, suicidality among kids in Michigan rose substantially, according to Marcus, and doctors were feeling panicked. They’d call her and say, “I have many patients who have guns in their home, who are depressed, who may be suicidal.” At OHS, guidance counselors were getting regularly pulled away to cover classrooms when teachers were sick, Hopkins testified. It was often impossible for teachers to assess kids’ well-being over Zoom. “We had eyes on the kids,” said Anita Qonja-Collins, the assistant superintendent of elementary instruction in Oxford, “but did we really have eyes on the kids?”



 
Far West said:
I think the article speaks to the fact that the limited services they had were difficult to access and the councilors were inundated with troubles made worse by the covid lockdowns that amplified teen mental problems.



Even before the pandemic, administrators in Oxford schools had started to notice more fragility, anxiety, depression, and withdrawal among students.

In the late 1990s, the Republican governor John Engler had closed three-quarters of Michigan’s psychiatric hospitals in a cost-cutting spree, leaving rural areas barren of psychiatric inpatient treatment for kids. There was some outpatient help available, but many families didn’t know where to find it “unless they were very savvy,” one administrator told me. When they did, wait times averaged four months. This backlog strained emergency rooms. “Every time a kid said, ‘If I don’t get an A on this spelling test, I’m going to kill myself or kill you’ or something,” she was sent to the ER, says Sheila Marcus, a psychiatrist at the University of Michigan who runs a program that trains primary-care doctors in mental health. Ninety percent of the time, these kids were deemed “not a threat” and sent back to school.

At school, mental-health support was far from robust. Shawn Hopkins, Ethan’s guidance counselor, testified in court that he was one of four counselors at the high school looking after the needs of 1,800 kids. This gave him time to see each student for ten minutes once a year, barring crises. He was performing one or two suicide-risk assessments each month. Meanwhile, among certain parents, a mistrust of educators, institutions, and authority figures was growing — a stubborn sense of “You’re not going to tell me what to do with my kid,” as Rosemary Bayer put it.

During the pandemic, suicidality among kids in Michigan rose substantially, according to Marcus, and doctors were feeling panicked. They’d call her and say, “I have many patients who have guns in their home, who are depressed, who may be suicidal.” At OHS, guidance counselors were getting regularly pulled away to cover classrooms when teachers were sick, Hopkins testified. It was often impossible for teachers to assess kids’ well-being over Zoom. “We had eyes on the kids,” said Anita Qonja-Collins, the assistant superintendent of elementary instruction in Oxford, “but did we really have eyes on the kids?”
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The bottom line is Ethan lived with his parents. His parents were aware he had mental problems. It was their responsibility to get him help, but they didn't. You can't say a facility was not available because his one and only friend was institutionalized for mental problems. If his parents had lived up to their parental responsibilities, that shooting would most likely have never occurred.
 
Boss 302 said:
The bottom line is Ethan lived with his parents. His parents were aware he had mental problems. It was their responsibility to get him help, but they didn't. You can't say a facility was not available because his one and only friend was institutionalized for mental problems. If his parents had lived up to their parental responsibilities, that shooting would most likely have never occurred.
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Yes, and I bet he was showing the same problems in elementary school... but we are told to pretend these kids are fine.

We have an epidemic of children that are screwed up, he is one of too many.

The one thing that sets him apart from the last shooters is he isn't a trans kid.

It was seeming like instead of help, we offer them a chance to change their sex never bothering to give them psychological help.

This kid was the 7th one who did this recently, he was not given help. The other six were trans kids, the help they were given was to change their sex, not to find out what was wrong with them.

My whole point is we are not weeding kids out who need psychological help. We have normalized bizarre and unsocial behavior to the point this is becoming the norm. Kids so psychologically wrecked, they shoot up the schools, then everyone acts surprised.

1712773096543.png
 
Far West said:
Yes, and I bet he was showing the same problems in elementary school... but we are told to pretend these kids are fine.

We have an epidemic of children that are screwed up, he is one of too many.

The one thing that sets him apart from the last shooters is he isn't a trans kid.

It was seeming like instead of help, we offer them a chance to change their sex never bothering to give them psychological help.

This kid was the 7th one who did this recently, he was not given help. The other six were trans kids, the help they were given was to change their sex, not to find out what was wrong with them.

My whole point is we are not weeding kids out who need psychological help. We have normalized bizarre and unsocial behavior to the point this is becoming the norm. Kids so psychologically wrecked, they shoot up the schools, then everyone acts surprised.

View attachment 16645
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I say again...we should be getting them counseling instead of encouraging them to play cut and paste with body parts.
 
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