Not such a good day...

Grey Colson

Grey Colson

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I didn't know my wife's uncle very well. He came to our wedding and I had spoken with him once or twice while visiting her side of the family in Alabama. I place his age around 65 to 70 years old. Mrs. Reacher got a call around noon today that he had killed himself today and that it was supposedly the result of a marital argument over financial matters. His 20+ year old daughter found him moments after the incident.

I've heard many folks in my faith (Baptist) that have previously said that a person goes to hell if they kill themselves. I've never given it that much thought but have also not given that idea much weight since I have never seen scripture to back that belief.

I believe that what determines a persons spiritual state and destination is their relationship with Christ and not some one time act. I certainly don't know my wife's uncle's spiritual condition, but I don't believe that suicide is an unpardonable sin. What are your thought's or beliefs in this matter and can they be backed up by scripture?

Question: Is the murder of another person more serious than murder of one's self? Can a murderer be forgivin if he repents?

If the argument is that a person who commits suicide does not have the opportunity to ask for forgiveness, then if you have unconfessed sin and die in a sudden car crash, are you in the same boat. All interesting questions...
 
Background: I am a protestant evangelical Christian. My opinion: We are saved by grace, not by our works. If we cannot be saved by something we do, we cannot be "unsaved" by something we do. If dying without confessing sins condemned one to hell, I think heaven would be sparsely populated, indeed. John 10:29 says that no one can snatch a person who belongs to Jesus out of His hand. And so, I believe it comes down to whether a person knows the Lord or he doesn't, but that's an entirely different question, and one that I am not about to judge for any other person except for myself. As to suicide, the Lord knows our frailties far better than even we know them, and He knows that sometimes a person with a certain personality and under certain stress might reach a limit that would spur him to do something drastic such as take his own life. And so, IMHO, suicide would be just like any other sin in the eyes of the Lord. If you know Him and have chosen to receive His forgiveness for your sin (past, present, and future) and have repented of said sin (past, present, and future), it's all covered under the blood of Jesus. If you don't, it ain't.

I grew up Southern Baptist. Believe me when I say that I have seen enough legalism and judgmentalism in the church to choke a horse. And a pathetically minute amount of mercy and compassion at the same time. It's funny how folks can have such a holier-than-thou opinion about so many things until (gasp!) it touches their own lives. Then, it's a different story. All of which has contributed to my now considering myself a Recovering Baptist. (Yes, I know not all are like this. I'm just sayin'.)

I'm so sorry for the family of this man. Believe me when I say that I know his mindset; I've just never done anything when in that mindset. But their grief will be messy, indeed. Lots of anger. LOTS of anger. Which the Lord can also heal, but they will have to let Him, and it will also take a lot of work and time.
 
Jack Reacher said:
What are your thought's or beliefs in this matter and can they be backed up by scripture?
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And this, sir, is the key - is what a person believes backed up by what God says in His Word to us?
 
My heart goes out to his family. As for the rest, I'll let God decide. That's His job.
 
I'm with Madea, it's God's decision.

I had a sister that took her own life in 1990, I struggled with this very thing. I know she had a close relationship with God for a very long time, she just lost her way due to circumstances she had little control over. I have forgiven her, it took a long time but only God knows what was really in her heart. I pray every day, he too forgave her. I believe he did.
 
Thanks for such thoughtful responses. I have found it interesting as I grow older what people have come up with over the years that are not founded in scripture. Many of these ideals are simply passed from one generation to another without question.

I read an interesting take on that website, "God Said, Man Said" that also seems to be well thought out. The author mentioned that many people commit suicide, either by a one time act or over years and years of substance abuse.

I told my wife that I understand differing points of view regarding scripture. However when a firm stand is taken, such as suicide being an immediate ticket to hell, by-passing even salvation and it has no basis in scripture, the living are left with devastating sorry that exceeds the typical grief experienced after the loss of a loved one.

Because God knows all things and is in control of all things, I don't believe any soul enters eternity a moment before they are due. But that's just my personal belief based on God's total control of everything.
 
Oh, NG, I'm so very sorry. My heart hurts for you and the others who loved your sister. And yes, God forgave your sister even before her sin.
 
Many (maybe all) people that attempt or commit suicide are suffering from from severe emotional and/or physical pain. Otherwise why would they do what they do? Many have looked for help and may have found some, but unfortunately at a critical time they feel hopeless. They are looking for a means of escape from what they view as relentless helplessness. I think their pain is so intense that they are short sighted and don't see the suffering that their death with cause others. Sometimes their thinking is so distorted that they believe that everyone would be better off if they were dead. The pain and sorrow that those who are left behind experience is understandable. It can be a reminder of the pain their love one must have been experiencing, too.
 
my brother shot himself a year ago in January ...
My dad still struggles with it and he use to tell me when we were little that if you did that it was a ticket to hell... He is baptist too. But he has changed his tune a little.
1.) he said you just don't know
2.) he was not in his right mind, how could you be to do something like that
3.) he did not know where my brother stood in his faith and if he was a believer

We were raised Christian but my Brother chose the more rocky road in life . If she needs to talk to anyone I do not mind chit chatting with her

I have my up days and down days....

Your question made me cry and I had to sit here a minute and still can't give you a bias answer. It pains me to think my brother might spend eternity in hell... so I am choosing not to think about it
 
Oh, Sadie...I had no idea. I am so terribly sorry. I can't come up with anything to say except that the Father knows, and He takes care of us. His mercies are new every morning, and His faithfulness is great. My heart just hurts for you, and if my heart hurts for you, how much more must His big ol' heart hurt for you? I will DEFINITELY keep you in my prayers now.
 
Oh, I am sorry for such terrible suffering. :( I wil keep you all in my prayers today: JR and family, NG, and Sadie. We cannot know what happens at the moment of someone's death. It is entirely possible that the person encounters Our Lord with great repentance and love and yet is unable to reverse his physical act. God bless all you guys.
 
Genevieve said:
Oh, I am sorry for such terrible suffering. :( I wil keep you all in my prayers today: JR and family, NG, and Sadie. We cannot know what happens at the moment of someone's death. It is entirely possible that the person encounters Our Lord with great repentance and love and yet is unable to reverse his physical act. God bless all you guys.
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Thanks Gen and all. Your words are always a comfort. Mrs. Reacher is going to the service in Alabama tomorrow afternoon. I ask that you pray for her family and traveling mercies for them all. My schedule prevents me from going on Wednesday, it's one of our busier nights.
 
Jack Reacher said:
Thanks Gen and all. Your words are always a comfort. Mrs. Reacher is going to the service in Alabama tomorrow afternoon.
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I was thinking about your post and was wondering how your wife and the other members of her uncle's family are doing?
 
ButterflyLion said:
Jack Reacher said:
Thanks Gen and all. Your words are always a comfort. Mrs. Reacher is going to the service in Alabama tomorrow afternoon.
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I was thinking about your post and was wondering how your wife and the other members of her uncle's family are doing?
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Thank you so much. Mrs. Reacher is fine. He Dad had a difficult time. He was his last living brother. It was good for my wife to make the trip with her sister yesterday. We had not been there since her grandparents passed away. She had to opportunity to visit with the rest of her side of the family.

Thank you again for your thoughts. :D
 
I'm sorry to hear this. A suicide is always difficult to deal with (I think) — I have known two people who killed themselves, and although neither were very close to me, it was extremely upsetting on both occasions. I hope Mrs Reacher is coping with it as well as she can and that all the people affected have the support that they need.

Jack Reacher said:
I've heard many folks in my faith (Baptist) that have previously said that a person goes to hell if they kill themselves. I've never given it that much thought but have also not given that idea much weight since I have never seen scripture to back that belief.
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The Baptists have not been alone in this: many Christian denominations have taken that view over the centuries. But from a Christian perspective, I'm not sure either that it can be backed up by Scripture. Is not every sin (except a sin against the Holy Spirit, into which category I think this wouldn't fall, since I think that is an ongoing denial of the Spirit's work) able to be forgiven? Is not that one of the most important messages of Christianity?

Jack Reacher said:
Question: Is the murder of another person more serious than murder of one's self? Can a murderer be forgivin if he repents?
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Sin is sin. It is what separates us from God. Of course, in human, social terms, some sins are more serious than others. But in God's eyes, as I say, I think sin is sin. Hence, for example, Christ's comments about people who bear anger committing murder in their heart and so on. When we're talking about the relationship between sin and forgiveness (and, in this context of death, I think you're also thinking of eternal life), I don't think that we can "rate" sins, saying that one is less bad than another.

Jack Reacher said:
If the argument is that a person who commits suicide does not have the opportunity to ask for forgiveness, then if you have unconfessed sin and die in a sudden car crash, are you in the same boat. All interesting questions...
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Exactly. Taken to its logical conclusion, this idea becomes very legalistic and almost mechanical: die after you've confessed and you're fine; die before and you're not. Although confession of sins (whether directly to God, in the context of a general confession with other Christians in a church service, or perhaps to a priest) is helpful and may be necessary, I think the question of forgiveness rests with God and the matter of our realisation of our sin is an ongoing growth rather than a series of (possibly mechanical) confessions. The saving work of Christ and his bearing of our sin is what enables us to be forgiven and to be saved. I don't think that a mere accident of the timing of one's death in relation to a confession is what matters.

In this case, you might argue, the timing of the death was not exactly an accident in that it was caused directly by the person's actions. But I think that it is the state of the person's relationship with God that is important, more than the timing or cause of the person's death.

In any case, we don't know that he didn't repent before he died. I don't know how he killed himself, but even if it was by shooting and he died instantly, there would still be time for him to speak to God between pulling the trigger and dying — God is always there and it's not as if you have to wait for a connection, in the way of an operator-controlled telephone system. But — while I think what I've just said is true — it also underlines in its own way what I have already said earlier about the mechanical, legalistic nature of this thinking, too.

Anyway, they're my initial thoughts. Sorry I've gone on for so long.
 
Christ died for our sins, before we committed those sins. It's up to us to accept that gift...the gift of salvation. With that being said, I firmly believe that if a born again christian commits suicide, they will go to heaven. They are already covered by the blood of Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and nothing can change that.
 
Ridingthewave,

Please don't apologize for such a well thought out response. We share the same views about life, death, sin and forgiveness. Thank you for your thoughts. My wife's family is at peace with the incident and what we have learned since then is that it is likely her uncle had a relationship with the Lord before he took his life.

There are obviously so many questions about eternity that we won't have the answers to in this life. Part of "The half that's never been told" that my mother talked about so much. Thank you again.

JR
 
deewee said:
Christ died for our sins, before we committed those sins. It's up to us to accept that gift...the gift of salvation. With that being said, I firmly believe that if a born again christian commits suicide, they will go to heaven. They are already covered by the blood of Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and nothing can change that.
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I agree 100% deewee. Saved, sure and secure. If not, the sacrifice of Jesus would have been in vain. HOOO! don't start me to preachin' here... :CLAP
 
Jack Reacher said:
deewee said:
Christ died for our sins, before we committed those sins. It's up to us to accept that gift...the gift of salvation. With that being said, I firmly believe that if a born again christian commits suicide, they will go to heaven. They are already covered by the blood of Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and nothing can change that.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% deewee. Saved, sure and secure. If not, the sacrifice of Jesus would have been in vain. HOOO! don't start me to preachin' here... :CLAP
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:)

My security in Christ is the one thing I am always sure of....and I LOVE that!
 
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