Electric vehicles....

Aside from the charging time (I don't know how they'll park a plane mid-air to hook to a charger mid-flight or how they'll get the charging station installed at 30k ft) the weight factor alone makes no sense to me. I'm no scientist or physics teacher but I'm pretty sure the weight of a cubic foot of engine fuel weighs less than the equivalent measurement of fuel in a battery. That is unless they're not revealing a breakthrough in battery technology.
 
Seems to me that if we're going to electrify airplanes, anything beyond short commuter planes will need an on-board power source.

Though this probably won't fly (pun intended), it seems to me a nuclear reactor with battery back-up driving electric motors is the best way to do it. That's how submarines do it.
 
J-man said:
Aside from the charging time (I don't know how they'll park a plane mid-air to hook to a charger mid-flight or how they'll get the charging station installed at 30k ft) the weight factor alone makes no sense to me. I'm no scientist or physics teacher but I'm pretty sure the weight of a cubic foot of engine fuel weighs less than the equivalent measurement of fuel in a battery. That is unless they're not revealing a breakthrough in battery technology.
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Model planes have been electric for a while, so while the range and the amount of cargo capacity is limited, it can work. It's the charging on the ground that doesn't make sense to me.

They want 1 hour turnaround of these planes. It's easy to refuel a plane in 30 minutes, but imagine the electrical load to try to charge a battery that can carry a plane 300 miles after a takeoff and climb to 20K ft. The charging cables will have to be water cooled!! Plus, there will need to be a cooling system for the batteries, as they get hot when discharged or charged. (as the charging/discharge process is not 100% efficient)

Then imagine the total load of 2 to 10 or more of these planes trying to charge all at once as part of the "hub and spoke" system. The airport would need a high voltage lines directly to the site. The infrastructure would be incredible.

Then figure what happens if those lines go down. An airport can run off of generators if need be, but no way will they have backup power available to charge these planes. Way too expensive. So they are grounded until the lines are fixed.

You can de-fuel a plane easy enough to work on it, how do you discharge that much power easily without starting a fire somewhere? What happens when a mechanic drops a wrench and shorts out the battery? I've heard of that happening with Telephone Central Office Lead acid batteries, it usually melts the wrench to vapor. :oops: Would you want a fully charged plane in a hanger with several other hundred million $ planes?

Lastly, what flies will sooner or later crash. If it's early in the flight with a full battery, what happens? Fuel can spill and burn and run into streams, but we know how to handle that. If the battery explodes, how will we clean up the chemicals blown everywhere? How will fire depts be able to put out the fire or will they just have to let it burn like the EV cars and trucks?

Too many questions for my mind.
 
The Sound Guy said:
Model planes have been electric for a while, so while the range and the amount of cargo capacity is limited, it can work. It's the charging on the ground that doesn't make sense to me.

They want 1 hour turnaround of these planes. It's easy to refuel a plane in 30 minutes, but imagine the electrical load to try to charge a battery that can carry a plane 300 miles after a takeoff and climb to 20K ft. The charging cables will have to be water cooled!! Plus, there will need to be a cooling system for the batteries, as they get hot when discharged or charged. (as the charging/discharge process is not 100% efficient)

Then imagine the total load of 2 to 10 or more of these planes trying to charge all at once as part of the "hub and spoke" system. The airport would need a high voltage lines directly to the site. The infrastructure would be incredible.

Then figure what happens if those lines go down. An airport can run off of generators if need be, but no way will they have backup power available to charge these planes. Way too expensive. So they are grounded until the lines are fixed.

You can de-fuel a plane easy enough to work on it, how do you discharge that much power easily without starting a fire somewhere? What happens when a mechanic drops a wrench and shorts out the battery? I've heard of that happening with Telephone Central Office Lead acid batteries, it usually melts the wrench to vapor. :oops: Would you want a fully charged plane in a hanger with several other hundred million $ planes?

Lastly, what flies will sooner or later crash. If it's early in the flight with a full battery, what happens? Fuel can spill and burn and run into streams, but we know how to handle that. If the battery explodes, how will we clean up the chemicals blown everywhere? How will fire depts be able to put out the fire or will they just have to let it burn like the EV cars and trucks?

Too many questions for my mind.
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I imagined that they would have big battery pods that would slide in and out of a belly bay. Imagine a giant version of a power tool. It can be done, but I would be striving for something like a glider with electric assist. Get it to altitude and kill the motors and glide to the destination.
Another problem with electric planes, is what to do if they have to circle for a while before landing?
 
Paxilpapa said:
I imagined that they would have big battery pods that would slide in and out of a belly bay.
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I thought they would do cars like that too, but no. They want the weight of them as low as possible so the vehicle will have a low center of gravity, so they use a "skateboard" design.

I would have to think through the effect of this on a plane. Some additional factors at play there.

But yeah, I see all kinds of potential issues. I think they would need some sort of on-board power generation to use if/when needed.
 
Paxilpapa said:
I imagined that they would have big battery pods that would slide in and out of a belly bay. Imagine a giant version of a power tool. It can be done, but I would be striving for something like a glider with electric assist. Get it to altitude and kill the motors and glide to the destination.
Another problem with electric planes, is what to do if they have to circle for a while before landing?
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The plane would be a glider if the battery pod fell out during flight.
 
Boss 302 said:
The plane would be a glider if the battery pod fell out during flight.
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The battery better be balanced right on the center of gravity if it comes out or it will be a short flight.

"A nose heavy airplane flies poorly (assuming power), a tail heavy airplane flies once."

Besides, I would think a lot of the battery would be in the wing where the fuel tanks are now. Otherwise that is a lot of wasted space.

You could eject the wings, but again, would be a short flight. :)
 
Boss 302 said:
The plane would be a glider if the battery pod fell out during flight.
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That is the plan of attack in all airplanes even today. If the power fails, the pilot knows what his plane's 'Glide Ratio' is and makes a plan to glide somewhere. Did you know that an initial requirement of the Eisenhower Interstate System requires that every 5 miles it is required to be straight and flat enough with no obstructions so as to land a passenger or war plane?
They can easily make sure the pods are securely attached to the plane, any type of ordnance mount will do.
 

Ford F-150 Lightning fire footage highlights a growing EV risk​


Electric vehicles....

Aside from the charging time (I don't know how they'll park a plane mid-air to hook to a charger mid-flight or how they'll get the charging station installed at 30k ft) the weight factor alone makes no sense to me. I'm no scientist or physics teacher but I'm pretty sure the weight of a cubic...
www.dallashwy.com
 
Guard Dad said:

Ford F-150 Lightning fire footage highlights a growing EV risk​


Electric vehicles....

Aside from the charging time (I don't know how they'll park a plane mid-air to hook to a charger mid-flight or how they'll get the charging station installed at 30k ft) the weight factor alone makes no sense to me. I'm no scientist or physics teacher but I'm pretty sure the weight of a cubic...
www.dallashwy.com
Click to expand...

www.cnbc.com

Ford F-150 Lightning fire footage highlights a growing EV risk

Fires involving EV batteries can burn hotter and longer and require new techniques to extinguish, posing a growing challenge to first responders.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
 
Safety , Size, for the most part, you have to pick one.

You try to pack more battery into the same space, you reduce the size of the insulators, which makes the batteries more likely to be damaged or fail.

Battery fires in Prius and other Hybrids don't seem to be near as common, or bad, I believe because the battery is much smaller capacity and able to be made safer since they are not trying to fit hundreds of KWH of capacity on the car. Same with the Nisson Leaf. Yeah it didn't have a huge range, but from what I could find, it's only had 4 battery fires.

Incidents where a Nissan LEAF has been documented to catch on fire have occurred in 2015, 2017, 2020, and 2021. The cause of many of these incidents is unknown or unconfirmed.

Pushing stuff to the limit causes Booms. See "Starship Launch". They should figure out sooner or later what limits they have in the real world for battery construction, but it will take a while.
 
Gasoline in an open fire burns at around 500 degrees F

Lithium Ion batteries burn at around 3600 degrees F

Fire departments reports indicate it takes about 30,000 gallons of water to put out an EV fire. To put into perspective, that's more than my in-ground swimming pool holds.

If the battery in an EV catches fire while people are in it, they probably won't have time to get out. A 3600 degree fire inches below your butt isn't playing.
 
Guard Dad said:
Gasoline in an open fire burns at around 500 degrees F

Lithium Ion batteries burn at around 3600 degrees F

Fire departments reports indicate it takes about 30,000 gallons of water to put out an EV fire. To put into perspective, that's more than my in-ground swimming pool holds.

If the battery in an EV catches fire while people are in it, they probably won't have time to get out. A 3600 degree fire inches below your butt isn't playing.
Click to expand...
The furnaces to cremate bodies only puts out 1,800 degrees F.
 
Guard Dad said:
If the battery in an EV catches fire while people are in it, they probably won't have time to get out. A 3600 degree fire inches below your butt isn't playing.
Click to expand...
Hopefully it will be just a few cells to begin with, before the entire battery goes into thermal runaway.

However, if you stuck in the vehicle due to body damage... I wouldn't want to be there.

There are exact standards on fuel tanks to be sure that they are crash resistant. I can see new standards for battery protection coming out pretty quickly.
 
Guard Dad said:
Gasoline in an open fire burns at around 500 degrees F

Lithium Ion batteries burn at around 3600 degrees F

Fire departments reports indicate it takes about 30,000 gallons of water to put out an EV fire. To put into perspective, that's more than my in-ground swimming pool holds.

If the battery in an EV catches fire while people are in it, they probably won't have time to get out. A 3600 degree fire inches below your butt isn't playing.
Click to expand...
You have a pool?
 
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