Let's Not Forget the Fundamentalist Element

[Waski_the_Squirrel]

I respectfully disagree about them being true Christians. One can call themselves a Christian, without ever having been saved.

There are indeed extremists everywhere, and religion is a great place for an extremist to "hide". I don't think anyone would argue that.

You don't have to be respectful. We can disagree.

I don't know what's in a person's mind. If someone tells me they are a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or whatever, I take them at their word. Most religions don't leave it up to people to judge that. But, if we're going to say these aren't true Christians, then we also have to say the same about the Muslim extremists and the Hindu extremists.

It comes back to why I started this: too many in the media and in politics lump Muslims into one group and forget that they are as diverse as Christians.

And I think we agree that extremism is the problem, not the religion itself. I attend a Christian church myself, even though I no longer believe in any of it. I think it would be interesting and mind-opening to attend other religious services as well.

 

[ShoeDiva]

DeeWee here is some info, names and a youtube. I believe there is a couple documentaries out there, maybe one on HBO? I can not remember. I just pulled some of these because of some information more than just a Huffpo article or wiki. I am not sure if they cover everything, but if you are interested in this it is a good start for some information.


http://www.unhcr.org/4981ca712.html


http://mgafrica.com/article/2014-08-21-child-witches-in-africa-far-from-being-a-traditional-belief-it-is-a-modern-invention

http://www.unicef.org/protection/nigeria_55301.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=47IIdWrZDI0

In 2011 Bishop Samuel Okon William was on trial for allegedly confessing “to the killing of over 100 child witches” in a documentary aired on BBC.
Bishop Sunday Ulup-Aya, who nicknamed himself the “poison destroyer."
Helen Ukpabio

 

[J-man]

I respectfully disagree about them being true Christians. One can call themselves a Christian, without ever having been saved.

There are indeed extremists everywhere, and religion is a great place for an extremist to "hide". I don't think anyone would argue that.

And I think we agree that extremism is the problem, not the religion itself. I attend a Christian church myself, even though I no longer believe in any of it. I think it would be interesting and mind-opening to attend other religious services as well.

Waski, while you're enjoying toying with the topic of religion can you please clarify something I've wondered about for a while now based on previous threads and comments you've made regarding religion.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the religious denomination of your Christian church? I'm asking out of curiosity and me asking is not meant to be taken as a personal attack or sarcastically. The reason I ask is because you've previously mentioned that you sometimes fill in at the pulpit for your pastor in his/her absence. I was just curious of how you reconcile being a fill-in pastor while maintaining apparent skeptical views regarding religion (and in this thread actually stating that you no longer believe in any of it). I am in no way implying that you should not fulfill your church duties and I personally have no issue with you doing so, yet I can't help but to find it a troubling position for you. Is your church congregation aware of your view on religion and is it a common view for your church denomination?

Again, I do not mean this as a personal attack. I'm merely doing what you often suggest, gathering facts and clarifying data. If you'd rather not respond or give the info then I completely understand and respect that. I'm just struggling with understanding how you balance the two.

 

[Waski_the_Squirrel]

I don't want to get into a long discussion about my church, and I definitely will not speak for the church. We have an agreement, and my atheism is only about 2 weeks old anyway.

I love a group of people, and I believe a sermon should be based on scripture. If I donate a few Sundays per year to help the church last one or two more years (which is about all that is realistic), I think that's good because it helps these people get together. If someone else is available to fill the pulpit who is willing to actually be Biblical, I would welcome them. I don't like these preachers who won't preach out of the Bible, and that is something I will continue to do when I am asked. If I disagree with a passage (like Judges 19), I just won't preach on it.

But, I'm not interested in any larger religious involvement, especially in another church. I'm attached to the people at this church and the good work they do. One prime example a few years ago is that they held a funeral for a man. Several other area churches in the area outright refused to hold this funeral or allow him into their cemeteries. Without going into details, my church decided that a funeral is not for the dead. It's for the living. We were widely criticized for holding this funeral and I even got some of that to my face from several community members. But, I still think we did the right thing for this man's family.

I'll do whatever it takes to help a group of people who can show this kind of love. I think they showed the best of what is in the Christian faith. I'm happy to preach about the good in the Bible as long as I'm not asked to lie or contradict my own conscience because I want them to be able to continue as a group. If someone comes along, I'm happy to step aside, and I'll never take a full time position. (I've actually had two offers, neither of them from this church.)

I used to post things like this thread because I wanted Christians to recognize and fight the darkness within their own faith. I may no longer believe in the faith, but I still think it's important to fight that darkness because there are forces, like the pastor who opened this thread, who want to return us to it. Good and evil is pretty universal, and, as long as I don't contradict scripture, I'm comfortable preaching on that.

 

[J-man]

I respect that of you, I sincerely do. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Again, I wasn't taking a personal stab at you but couldn't understand how you balance the two differing views. I do applaud you for helping when and where you can, that's what we all should be doing.

 

[deewee]

DeeWee here is some info, names and a youtube. I believe there is a couple documentaries out there, maybe one on HBO? I can not remember. I just pulled some of these because of some information more than just a Huffpo article or wiki. I am not sure if they cover everything, but if you are interested in this it is a good start for some information.


http://www.unhcr.org/4981ca712.html


http://mgafrica.com/article/2014-08-21-child-witches-in-africa-far-from-being-a-traditional-belief-it-is-a-modern-invention

http://www.unicef.org/protection/nigeria_55301.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=47IIdWrZDI0

In 2011 Bishop Samuel Okon William was on trial for allegedly confessing “to the killing of over 100 child witches” in a documentary aired on BBC.
Bishop Sunday Ulup-Aya, who nicknamed himself the “poison destroyer."
Helen Ukpabio

Thank you. I'm def going to check these out as soon as I can. :thumbsup

 

[Boss 302]

I don't see anywhere that he says if you don't agree with him then he must kill you. Even the Westboro crazies don't kill people.

You do know that in the Quran that there are multiple places where it also states that you can not kill anyone.

Those verses are from when Mohammed was living in Mecca and first founded Islam. Once he was forced to leave Mecca and went to Medina, he began preaching death to the infidels and forcing people to convert to Islam or put them to death.

 

[Boss 302]

I'm heard and read that for years. Many of the documentaries I've watched said the same thing. It was apparently forbidden at one time (might still be, dunno) to translate the Quaran into other languages because the clerics didn't want people actually reading it for themselves.

Here is an online English-language version. You can also purchase it in hardcover or paperback from the website.

http://www.wright-house.com/religions/islam/Quran.html

Here is the Skeptic's Annotated Quran. It points out hypocrisy, contradictions, evil, good, and verses on various topics. For those who are interested, the website has the same for the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

The main reason they don't like it to be translated can be seen in our own Bible. With translation, you lose the original meaning, errors and interpretations creep in, and so on. Just like the best way to understand the Bible is to read it in its original languages, the best way to read the Quran is to read it in its original language. However, translation is not forbidden, although I will concede that there may be some sects within the faith that hold to the original language, just as some sects in Christianity hold to the KJV (a translation with faults of its own, but that's not what this post is about).

Add to that one additional wrinkle: Muslims believe the Quran was spoken by God to Muhammed. However, he was illiterate, so the actual writing it down fell on other people. So, apparently the early Muslims didn't grasp how unreliable an oral tradition is. Nevertheless, they believe it is the words of God as he spoke them. Translation loses the meaning and sense, but is not forbidden.

God never told Muhammed anything. It is recorded in history that it was the angel Gabriel who appeared and delivered messages from God to Muhammed.

 

[stradial]

This is not a big deal, but just for informational purposes, Allah is the Arabic word for God.
So to say that the Muslims don't pray to God, they pray to Allah, is actually saying, the Muslims don't pray to God, they pray to God.
In fact, when the books of the bible were written Arabic, they would have used the word Allah for every place we now read the word God, since in Arabic that word means God.
So if a Muslim says, may Allah bless you, using all English words, they are saying, may God bless you.
Hmmmm, if you sneeze, do they say, Allah bless you?

Another interesting fact (at least to me) since the word God is a title, not a name, some of us (at least I did) had to learn that.
An example would be, in Hinduism, Buddha, is the name of one of their gods, but he is not their only god, they have several, at least as I understand it, so if you said, I prayed to god last night, someone would ask, which one, and not automatically think you were talking about Buddha.

 

[stradial]

I don't see anywhere that he says if you don't agree with him then he must kill you. Even the Westboro crazies don't kill people.

You do know that in the Quran that there are multiple places where it also states that you can not kill anyone.

Those verses are from when Mohammed was living in Mecca and first founded Islam. Once he was forced to leave Mecca and went to Medina, he began preaching death to the infidels and forcing people to convert to Islam or put them to death.

Not doing a tit for tat, I promise.
The Catholic church (which during the times I am referencing, was the basically only Christian church or religion) conquered a large part of the world using the same method.
Now they did allow the countries themselves to have the lands, but a large part of the spoils went to the Catholic church.
Not picking on Catholics, that is just historical facts.

 

[ShoeDiva]

I don't see anywhere that he says if you don't agree with him then he must kill you. Even the Westboro crazies don't kill people.

You do know that in the Quran that there are multiple places where it also states that you can not kill anyone.

Those verses are from when Mohammed was living in Mecca and first founded Islam. Once he was forced to leave Mecca and went to Medina, he began preaching death to the infidels and forcing people to convert to Islam or put them to death.

Not doing a tit for tat, I promise.
The Catholic church (which during the times I am referencing, was the basically only Christian church or religion) conquered a large part of the world using the same method.
Now they did allow the countries themselves to have the lands, but a large part of the spoils went to the Catholic church.
Not picking on Catholics, that is just historical facts.

:thumbsup

 

[ShoeDiva]

I don't see anywhere that he says if you don't agree with him then he must kill you. Even the Westboro crazies don't kill people.

You do know that in the Quran that there are multiple places where it also states that you can not kill anyone.

Those verses are from when Mohammed was living in Mecca and first founded Islam. Once he was forced to leave Mecca and went to Medina, he began preaching death to the infidels and forcing people to convert to Islam or put them to death.

During that time he was at "war" with others. The "rules" were different.
I am not saying even that part is right, but from every Muslim I have ever known, and that is a lot (as friends, as family) they believe the no killing, do not hurt children, etc...part. The other is only for times of war.
IDK... we can't all agree on our Bible, let alone another religions that is not in English.

 

[stradial]

I don't see anywhere that he says if you don't agree with him then he must kill you. Even the Westboro crazies don't kill people.

You do know that in the Quran that there are multiple places where it also states that you can not kill anyone.

Those verses are from when Mohammed was living in Mecca and first founded Islam. Once he was forced to leave Mecca and went to Medina, he began preaching death to the infidels and forcing people to convert to Islam or put them to death.

During that time he was at "war" with others. The "rules" were different.
I am not saying even that part is right, but from every Muslim I have ever known, and that is a lot (as friends, as family) they believe the no killing, do not hurt children, etc...part. The other is only for times of war.
IDK... we can't all agree on our Bible, let alone another religions that is not in English.

We all would be much better off if we just listened to me and accepted what I say and do what I say.
(at least that was what I told the wife today at the store)

 

[Madea]

How can you stand in a pulpit and classify yourself as an atheist? I respect your right to believe as you choose. But, I find it abhorrent that you would hold that belief and stand in a pulpit.

 

[honeybunny]

Words have meaning... and while the video preacher's words are certainly ugly and hateful,
attempting to compare them to the absolute EVIL of ISIS and Islamist terrorism is absurd.


A quick Google image search for "ISIS atrocities" makes this point very clear.

(^^^ warning that these images are in fact "evil" and extremely disturbing ! ! !)


Yes, there are isolated anecdotes of Christian terrorism. But there is only one religion
fomenting a systematic and sophisticated campaign of human carnage across the globe.

Failure to recognize this reality or to equate hate filled Christians with murderous jihadists,
is a common defense mechanism. A pernicious moral equivalence that is intellectually lazy.

Try openly denouncing and leaving your faith under Islamic law, the penalty would be death.


:girlsaysno

 

[ShoeDiva]

We all would be much better off if we just listened to me and accepted what I say and do what I say.
(at least that was what I told the wife today at the store)

) How is that working?

 

[deewee]

How can you stand in a pulpit and classify yourself as an atheist? I respect your right to believe as you choose. But, I find it abhorrent that you would hold that belief and stand in a pulpit.

My Q is this, does the church body know?

 

[Guard Dad]

I really don't think there is darkness in Christianity itself, or most of the other major faiths either (Islam probably excepted). The darkness comes from people. The Bible tells us that we are sinful by nature.

I forget who said it, and I'm paraphrasing here; but this has always made sense to me.

"I have no problem with Christianity, it's the Christians I don't like"

I can very much see why some would see us that way.

 

[lotstodo]

Short and not so sweet. Every organized religion preaches a superiority complex. Some more than others, and at various points in history to the point of enslaving or murdering those who believe otherwise (yes, even Christians). This is the universal evil of organized religion, that one may act inhumanely because humanity is but a prelude to whatever exists beyond. Sometimes the path to paradise is paved with one's enemies.

Right now, at this point in history, radical Islam has grown in influence to the point where it is in the final act. It will take other islamists to change minds and guns to counter guns. But never confuse the two.

 

[Boss 302]

I don't think it's a matter of being secularized; I think it's more about being more civilized and educated. All of us have easy access to our Bibles, so we can read with our own eyes what it says. I have been told that the Muslim clerics actually try to keep other Muslims from reading for themselves, and prefer that their people blindly believe what they are being taught.

In contrast; our Bible warns of false prophets and commands up to pass what we are being taught by the muster of The Word (meaning confirm what our preachers tell us by doing our own Bible study).

And frankly, our society as a whole puts more value on human life than Muslims usually do.

This is why the Taliban in Afghanistan would not build schools and then bombed the ones we constructed. Afghanistan has a male literacy rate of 43.1% and a female literacy rate of 12.6% (source).